Curse

lacasner · Apr 06, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

rather apathetic with regards to lootscaling, although I will marginally /sign it on one condition, which is the banning of ursan/and such skills in elite pve areas (Uw in particular.) Oh yea revert the fame system too.

slowerpoke · Apr 06, 2008, 09:12 PM // 21:12

LS is fine

Fay Vert · Apr 06, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Seems people REALLY get confused with what inflation is. Inflation is NOT high prices, it is RISING prices. In the early days of GW, or new chapters, certain things were high priced, but those prices always fell, that is DEFLATION, all happeneing with farmers doing their pre-loot nerf runs. DEFLATION, understand? I'll say it again for you, prior to the loot nerf we had DEFLATION.

BTW, A-Levels are not that low a qualification, and Economics is pretty specialised, so I would say that anyone with an A-Level in economics will know a lot more than anyone else who does not have anything specific, ie, just about everyone else in this thread who only have degrees in aarmchair economics.

Cab Tastic · Apr 06, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Inflation is a rise in the general nominal level of prices over time. It may also refer to a rise in the prices of a specific set of goods or services. In either case, it is measured as the percentage rate of change of a price index.

Here's a counter argument. This is the situation we had before the implementation of loot scaling. How is this not a case of inflation?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10273477

Let's assume the supply to be large and fixed as you described there, although we have yet to determine whether it is true or not.
Consider this counter argument:
Before the removal of loot scaling, person A only has 200k in his storage, and when he's about to buy a green item, he wishes to pay 20k for it. After 30 minutes, no one sells him the green item, so he just waits a bit longer to find the seller. Of course, he can't rise his price, because he doesn't have as much money to waste in such manner.
After the removal of loot scaling, person A now have 600k in his storage, and when he's about to buy a green item, he wishes to pay 20k for it. After 30 minutes, no one sells him the green item, so he rises his price upto 60k to attract sellers.
With the addition amount of gold being shoved into the market, despite how large the supply factor is, prices for items will still increase simply because people want to get their purchases as quick as possible. And how is this not a case of inflation?

An appeal to authority or argument by authority is a type of argument in logic consisting on basing the truth value of an assertion on the authority, knowledge, expertise, or position of the person asserting it. It is also known as argument from authority, argumentum ad verecundiam (Latin: argument to respect) or ipse dixit (Latin: he himself said it). It is one method of obtaining propositional knowledge, but a fallacy in regard to logic, because the validity of a claim does not follow from the credibility of the source. The corresponding reverse case would be an ad hominem attack: to imply that the claim is false because the asserter lacks authority or is otherwise objectionable in some way.

I know you would like to flash your achievements here and there, but I would really appreciate a non-fallacious argument.

The link you posted actually supports what most of us are saying. GW was experiencing deflation from those dizzy heights when Sup vigours were 100k+.
Just before the loot nerf if my memory is correct Sup vigours had fallen in price to around 30-40k ish? HM was the real cause of gold items/ superior runes falling in price as rapidly as they did. The cause? yep, that old favourite supply. A massive increase in supply.
In GW nothing breaks. Once your character has a sup vigour, it won't wear out, won't need replacing. It lasts forever but Sup vigours still keep dropping and the demand for them falls as the supply rises. It don't take a genius to work out that this will cause the price to fall at a trader.
oh btw. supply is not large and fixed. It's large and growing.

to answer your green weapon example.
Price is based on a balance of supply and demand. There will always be trades made above and below this balance point at around the market price.
Say this person did pay double what this item was really worth, in the grand scheme of things this won't affect the market price based on supply/demand.

cebalrai · Apr 06, 2008, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Anet wanted to put some boundaries on solo playing style. They did a good job IMO.

cebalrai · Apr 06, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cab Tastic

The link you posted actually supports what most of us are saying. GW was experiencing deflation from those dizzy heights when Sup vigours were 100k+.
Just before the loot nerf if my memory is correct Sup vigours had fallen in price to around 30-40k ish? HM was the real cause of gold items/ superior runes falling in price as rapidly as they did. The cause? yep, that old favourite supply. A massive increase in supply.
In GW nothing breaks. Once your character has a sup vigour, it won't wear out, won't need replacing. It lasts forever but Sup vigours still keep dropping and the demand for them falls as the supply rises. It don't take a genius to work out that this will cause the price to fall at a trader.
oh btw. supply is not large and fixed. It's large and growing.

to answer your green weapon example.
Price is based on a balance of supply and demand. There will always be trades made above and below this balance point at around the market price.
Say this person did pay double what this item was really worth, in the grand scheme of things this won't affect the market price based on supply/demand.

So what if the supply of gold in the game increases faster (much faster with no LS) than the supply of goods?

Huh? WHat then?

INFLATION!

Cab Tastic · Apr 06, 2008, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

So what if the supply of gold in the game increases faster (much faster with no LS) than the supply of goods?

Huh? WHat then?

INFLATION!

Did you play the game before LS? There was no evidence of this happening for 2 years!! We had deflation during this period. What makes you think now will be any different?

I know I keep asking but show me some evidence!!

cebalrai · Apr 06, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cab Tastic

Did you play the game before LS? There was no evidence of this happening for 2 years!! We had deflation during this period. What makes you think now will be any different?

I know I keep asking but show me some evidence!!

Been playing this game for ages.

We witnessed some things increasing in price, some decreasing.

We also witnessed an enormous and growing gap between the ultra rich and the poor. You either solo farmed and were mega-wealthy, making 30k or more per hour, or you did not (or could not) solo farm and made only a tiny fraction of that.

That was bad game design. And not fun for those who did not/could not solo farm.

Gli · Apr 06, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cab Tastic

Did you play the game before LS? There was no evidence of this happening for 2 years!! We had deflation during this period. What makes you think now will be any different?

I know I keep asking but show me some evidence!!

Lootscaling was introduced along with Hard Mode. Have you given any thought to the notion that the inflation it's supposed to prevent might not be existing inflation, but inflation that would result from Hard Mode farming with full drops? I have, and it makes sense. For example, without loot scaling, all those hordes of people doing raptor runs would add 50k+ gold per hour to the economy just selling junk to the merchant.

cebalrai · Apr 06, 2008, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

Been playing this game for ages.

We witnessed some things increasing in price, some decreasing.

We also witnessed an enormous and growing gap between the ultra rich and the poor. You either solo farmed and were mega-wealthy, making 30k or more per hour, or you did not (or could not) solo farm and made only a tiny fraction of that.

That was bad game design. And not fun for those who did not/could not solo farm.

Or rather I should say, we saw huge inflation on high-end items that only solo farmers were in the market for.

So yes, you're very wrong. There was plenty of inflation. Just not necessarily on certain things. Just cool stuff.

Fay Vert · Apr 06, 2008, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

So what if the supply of gold in the game increases faster (much faster with no LS) than the supply of goods?

Huh? WHat then?

INFLATION!

And yet before loot scaling we had deflation! Go figure how wrong your are based on what actually happened in the game. The facts and history of the game do not support you hypothesis. We know what happened in the economy before the loot nerf, we don't have to theorise, the prices came down.

And the ultra rich? They didn't get rich through farming white/blue merch fodder. There are still ultra rich in the game, wanna buy polar bear? good luck with that. Is it a problem? No, of course not, the ultra rich and their desire for ultra rare items do not concern or affect 99.9% of players.

cebalrai · Apr 06, 2008, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

And yet before loot scaling we had deflation! Go figure how wrong your are based on what actually happened in the game. The facts and history of the game do not support you hypothesis. We know what happened in the economy before the loot nerf, we don't have to theorise, the prices came down.

And the ultra rich? They didn't get rich through farming white/blue merch fodder. There are still ultra rich in the game, wanna buy polar bear? good luck with that. Is it a problem? No, of course not, the ultra rich and their desire for ultra rare items do not concern or affect 99.9% of players.

Okay, I JUST pointed out that high end items weren't deflating. I sold a gold axe for 340k back before LS. Do you think people could regularly afford stuff like that without solo farming? Just one example.

Sheesh... some kid could solo farm for three hours after school, four times in a week and bank 350-400k! That's insane money.

And that kid would go out and bid items up to insane prices. Not runes. I'm talking the finer things.

And yes, the ultra-rich did get rich solo farming mass white/blue/purple/gold crap all day. That method let to insanely huge incomes. That's how it worked.

cebalrai · Apr 07, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Let me give you dense folk an example. There are many more like this.

Way back when, the Sephis Axe was highly sought after. 15^50's used to sell for 100k which was a whole lotta cash back in the proph days!

Then they sold for 200k.

When I started working on my treasure hunter title (when just proph-factions were out), I pulled two of them. I sold them for 280k and 320k.

Solo farming was in full swing. Prices on all kinds of nice stuff was SOARING.

(then inscribable ones started dropping in NF and gwen and the price went into the tank on this item, which is beside the point since it was a change in game design)

Cab Tastic · Apr 07, 2008, 12:08 AM // 00:08

OK! We have gone from all things inflating to just the finer things. We are making progress!!

Here I will cut you some slack. The ultra rare items MAY rise in price. But it will not be sustainable and after a short period of time will then drop back into deflating in value.
As Fay pointed out, given that these things do not matter to 99.9% of the population of GW why should this be of concern. And surely every healthy economy needs "the finer things" that have value. Because if they do not have value do they not lose their shininess?

Fay Vert · Apr 07, 2008, 12:26 AM // 00:26

How much were Sephis Axes just before the loot nerf?
How much do high end items go for now, 1 year after the loot nerf?
Who are the dense folk?

cebalrai · Apr 07, 2008, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

How much were Sephis Axes just before the loot nerf?
How much do high end items go for now, 1 year after the loot nerf?
Who are the dense folk?

You are?

Because you didn't read/process what I wrote:

"(then inscribable ones started dropping in NF and gwen and the price went into the tank on this item, which is beside the point since it was a change in game design)"

cebalrai · Apr 07, 2008, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cab Tastic

As Fay pointed out, given that these things do not matter to 99.9% of the population of GW why should this be of concern.

This is EXACTLY my point.

One big reason the "finer things don't matter to 99.9% of the population" is because of the gap between rich and poor. And you're asking for LS removal which makes the rich solo farmers, much much richer - while the normal players get much much poorer, relatively speaking.

So yeah, you want a game where pretty much only solo farmers having access to high-end items. And anyone who plays the game normally will never be able to afford high-end stuff... Unless the normal player saves for a year or something, then they'll be able to get something a solo farmer can afford in a tiny fraction of that. Which is total crap IMO.

Keep in mind that most people who play this game don't know how to solo farm. They probably don't even know it exists. Your desires are the epitome of extreme elitism.

Fay Vert · Apr 07, 2008, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

You are?

You spend your time arguing with dense people that repeatedly prove you wrong? And then choose insults as your best option to win a debate?

Wow!

My apologies, I shall ignore your posts from now on.

slowerpoke · Apr 07, 2008, 01:23 AM // 01:23

low prices are good for the average buyer
for the greedy seller, not so much

cebalrai · Apr 07, 2008, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

My apologies, I shall ignore your posts from now on.

Since you didn't read what I wrote, and said something pointless because of it, I had assumed you already were.